Missing NAV WTP (DEM 116.30)

[mmaier41]

Hi,

I'm missing NAV WTP (DEM 116.30) the only ID for WTP is airport (airfield) at Papua New Guinea about 7900 nm away from my flightplan.

My Flightplan is a copy from PROATCX to EFB (EDDF->KIAD) see Attachment.

PROATCX recognizes WTP (DEM 116.30).

EDDF_KIAD.txt

[lonewulf47]

1 hour ago, mmaier41 said:

Hi,

I'm missing NAV WTP (DEM 116.30) the only ID for WTP is airport (airfield) at Papua New Guinea about 7900 nm away from my flightplan.

My Flightplan is a copy from PROATCX to EFB (EDDF->KIAD) see Attachment.

PROATCX recognizes WTP (DEM 116.30).

EDDF_KIAD.txt

Which Nav Database of which cycle are you using? I see WTP DME on my EFB v2 map, however it is very uncommon to use a DME as an enroute waypoint. No idea why ProATCX is doing that. We might need to investigate why WTP is not recognized.

 

[KiloJuliett]

6 hours ago, lonewulf47 said:

however it is very uncommon to use a DME as an enroute waypoint

Not so uncommon anymore since more and more VORs are decomissioned and only the DMEs remain.

 

I've checked the irish AIP, but couldn't find WTP anywhere. Hence, I assume it is no longer operational and therefore no longer part of the AIRAC database, which is the relevant source for flight route validation.

So why can you still see it on your EFB map? I would guess because it's in your sim database (by default or through an add-on). But this alone doesn't it enable to be used for your flight plan.

[lonewulf47]

26 minutes ago, Mr. ATC said:

Not so uncommon anymore since more and more VORs are decomissioned and only the DMEs remain.

I'm aware of that, however DME remain operational mainly to support basic DME/DME RNAV which is still being used in many A/C not being equipped with GPS or as Backup Navigation System. Usually as soon as the VOR part is decommissioned, teh remaining DME ist not being used as an RNAV Waypoint.

26 minutes ago, Mr. ATC said:

I've checked the irish AIP, but couldn't find WTP anywhere. Hence, I assume it is no longer operational and therefore no longer part of the AIRAC database, which is the relevant source for flight route validation.

So why can you still see it on your EFB map? I would guess because it's in your sim database (by default or through an add-on). But this alone doesn't it enable to be used for your flight plan.

Well, only Urs can tell us that, as from the EFB MAP I canot say whether it's stemming from a BGL file or from  the ARINC dataset. The only way to determine that would be to fly to the place and try tuning it. If it tunes then it's definitely from within a BGL...?

[mmaier41]

Hi Oscar,

15 hours ago, lonewulf47 said:

Which Nav Database of which cycle are you using?

[lonewulf47]

There is not too much that I can add:

First thing is that WTP DME is still contained in the Irish AIP as an Enroute Navaid. See Chapter GEN 2.5. List Of Navaids

 

 

And also in ENR 4.1:

 

 

It is (obviously) also contained in the NavDataPro Database 1811 that I'm using. I see it in the navaids.txt list:

 

 

Based on the above Facts I see it also on my EFB v2 World Map:

 

 

So, it's a bit difficult to say what happened here. On my side with the NavDataPro Cycle 1811 everything looks as it should. It might be worth investigating with the Navigraph 1811 cycle. I'm unable at my end, as I'm not using Navigraph.

 

 

[mmaier41]

Hi Oskar,

A further investigation revealed see attachment.

Missing WTP Analyse.txt

[lonewulf47]

33 minutes ago, mmaier41 said:

Hi Oskar,

A further investigation revealed see attachment.

Missing WTP Analyse.txt

Thanks Manfred,

 

It seems to me that during the database building process this DME is "getting lost" for whatever reason it may be. We will have to investigate. ATM Urs is AFK, so it will take a bit until investigations can start. We will keep you advised ASAP.

[lonewulf47]

Manfred, there are two more things:

 

1. The WTP DME in my install is tuneable, which means that it is contained in the repective default BGL. If it were only contained in the ARINC ddataset, it wouldn't be tuneable.

 

2. The fact, that you have TWO databases with TWO different cycles (1810 outdated and 1811 actual) is in fact something that should neither happen nor be possible. In fact only ONE database per Simulator and per Data Provider is possible. In any case you should delete both databases and build a (single) new one.

 

That fact that the WTP DME is tuneable in my install is clearly attributed to my regular update of the default BGLs by Hervé Sors' fabulous free update service for Navaids. http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

For waypoints (also available) it is not necessary as in EFB v2 all waypoints are derived from the ARINC dataset, unlike all navaids, as the latter need to be tuneable and therefore are taken from the BGLs in first priority.  If a Navaid is not tuneable and only derived from ARINC data, it should show up greyed out (virtual navaid). Why this is not the case in your install we will yet need to find out.

[mmaier41]

2 hours ago, lonewulf47 said:

2. The fact, that you have TWO databases with TWO different cycles (1810 outdated and 1811 actual) is in fact something that should neither happen nor be possible. In fact only ONE database per Simulator and per Data Provider is possible. In any case you should delete both databases and build a (single) new one.

 

I have done, no change for WTP missing

[KiloJuliett]

On 10/17/2018 at 4:24 PM, mmaier41 said:

I'm missing NAV WTP

Oh well, I was looking for WTP. Not suprising I didn't find it.

[lonewulf47]

11 hours ago, mmaier41 said:

 

I have done, no change for WTP missing

For the moment just wait for the results of cour investigation. I have done a few tests with other standalone DMEs. In fact if a navaid is not existing in a BGL, then it should be depicted "greyed out" as a virtual navaid, which is not tuneable, but still available as waypoint in EFB v2. This worked satisfactorily on other DMEs like HOC (Hochwald) and others. They are all depicted in grey and will show up in the list if needed. For the time being it's only WTP (there may of course be others) that does NOT show up (I have tested with NavDataPro database). We need to thoroughly check WTP DME in the ARINC dataset to find out what inhibits its display. Just make sure that, even if it shows up, it will not be tuneable (not indicating on the DME receiver) if it is not part of any BGL. To improve this situation we recommend the use of http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html to reflect the actual state of all navaids worldwide.

[mmaier41]

Hi Oskar,

1 hour ago, lonewulf47 said:

To improve this situation we recommend the use of http://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html to reflect the actual state of all navaids worldwide.

 

The cargo pilots thank you very much.

[lonewulf47]

3 minutes ago, mmaier41 said:

Hi Oskar,

....

The cargo pilots thank you very much.

Hi Manfred,

 

Looks great! We will of course neverthelss investigate but for the moment I see that you are done with Hervè Sors' Navaids Update. Thanky for reporting!