Thoughts on v2

[Clorix]

First of all, congrats on the release of EFB v2!  It looks very nice and works great for me so far!

 

As a user of EFB v1, I have grown accustomed to its usage and the way it presents the information to me.  Maybe it's just me being used to that version.  I have a few ideas for improvements, if I may, that I think if they existed in v2 would make it a definite upgrade for me.

 

1. SID/STAR Overviews:  I loved the feature where you could view all SIDs/STARs based on the direction of travel.  This helped me tremendously to plan my departures and arrivals when appropriate, and gave me a good idea of which one to select or expect without having to view them one-by-one.
2. More prominent display of information:  The way EFB v1 displayed chart information was very good.  Things like frequencies, restrictions, courses, etc. were MUCH more prominently displayed, using bold font and larger text size.  As it is now in v2, those same items are displayed in something like a 12pt, non-bolded style making it very difficult to find those items at a glance.
3. Different color between phases of flight:  It would be great to have the SID/STAR portion of the route be highlighted in a different color than the approach phase, for example.  As it stands, it's difficult, if not impossible, to determine where a STAR ends and the approach begins.
4. An option to disable collapse of non-selected procedures/runways:  When I select a runway, SID, STAR, or approach, all other options are removed until I deselect the one currently being viewed.  This may make it a bit cleaner, but for those like me who use the EFB to help plan a flight, it's a bit unfriendly to have to first deselect something to be able to select something else.  I think an option to disable that behavior would be great.
5. Add OK/Close/Select buttons where appropriate:  In various windows, there is no option to just close them without applying changes to your flight plan.  I may want to view a procedure in full without extra windows open to make it easier to view.  As it is, I have to keep the window open, or use the X in the top-right, which isn't very touch-screen friendly in my opinion.
6. The proposed cruise level should be appropriate for direction of flight:  In EFB v1, it would give you a little reminder of whether to use even or odd flight levels.  In v2, it doesn't do that at all.  If it's going to propose a cruise level, I think it should also follow the general rules of direction of flight.

 

These are the ones I can think of right now.  I'm currently using the demo of EFB v2 and will continue to use it until my trial is up.  I would love to be able to upgrade as I genuinely appreciate this software, and LOVE the new features of the ground charts especially.  But, right now, I'm not considering purchasing v2 until some of these things are addressed.  I'm hoping this constructive criticism will only improve what is already a VERY nice piece of software!

[FwFreak]

First I also want to congratulate you for this new version.

 

But I have to agree to most of Clorix objection.

 

I used the EFB not only inflight, but also to plan my routes. The SID/STAR overview combined with SkyVector was a great solution to find my personal routings. At this time I'm very unsure if I buy the new version or stay with v1 because of this feature.

 

I also think, there are some windows which aren't really touch friendly.

For example if I select a proc I have to apply it to the flight plan and then press the x to close the window. Perhaps it is possible close the window auto close the window by clicking "Set FPL".

I also noticed that it isn't possible to scroll down a checklist with one finger, but perhaps it is a bug because a "zoom in" or "zoom out" gesture (with two fingers) will scroll the list up and down.

It would also be great to have a "Close" button at all windows for touch operation. It is not really comfortable to hit the small x.

 

Another wish is that it would be possible to directly open pln flightplans created by other tools. Until now I have imported my routing into Pro-ATC/X and exported the route as a .pln file to open them with Active Sky and EFB 1.But now I have to open a windows explorer to copy the flightplan file manually into the EFB uplink folder to get them. Perhaps you can add a tab within the "create flightplan" window with a flightplan/file list from a preselected folder.

 

 

Best regards

 

Karsten

 

[KiloJuliett]

Regarding your proposals refering to flight planning, be advised that EFB is not designed for this tasks.

 

May I ask why you would want different coloring of STAR and approaches? Would you then also mark transitions differently? Isn't this all together your approach?

 

On 7/2/2018 at 3:26 AM, Clorix said:

As it is, I have to keep the window open, or use the X in the top-right, which isn't very touch-screen friendly in my opinion.

The idea is to have the close button everywhere at the same place. It might be worth a thought to introduce an option making them more touch-friendly (bigger).

 

On 7/2/2018 at 3:26 AM, Clorix said:

The proposed cruise level should be appropriate for direction of flight

Unfortunately, the rules aren't the same all over the world. So it's not always west/east bound. To determine the correct FL according semi-circular rules (and FL changes when entering another area) is part of the flight planning, which is again not a task EFB is the tool for.

 

On 7/2/2018 at 3:26 AM, Clorix said:

An option to disable collapse of non-selected procedures/runways

There is no reason to display an option that doesn't match with filterings already done. E.g. if you have selected a specific runway, why should procedures of any other runway be displayed? You can always reset the filter with the button "Clear".

 

On 7/3/2018 at 4:32 AM, FwFreak said:

Perhaps it is possible close the window auto close the window by clicking "Set FPL".

Could be an option, also for the Sync. Can't remember right now, but it's very likely we found a good reason to not do it that way. Maybe @lonewulf47 you can remember?

 

On 7/3/2018 at 4:32 AM, FwFreak said:

I also noticed that it isn't possible to scroll down a checklist with one finger, but perhaps it is a bug because a "zoom in" or "zoom out" gesture (with two fingers) will scroll the list up and down.

I also noticed that and we did some testing. It is obvisouly a combination of operating system and the touch interface which makes the scrolling work on some devices and on others not really. Didn't find the root cause yet. Also here, an option like "enable touch functions" might be a possible solution.

[Clorix]

14 minutes ago, Mr. ATC said:

Regarding your proposals refering to flight planning, be advised that EFB is not designed for this tasks.

The same can be said for EFB v1, but the SID/STAR Overview feature was there, and those of us who used it found it tremendously useful in many cases.  It became part of our workflow.  For me, I don't keep a Navigraph subscription active all the time.  I subscribe twice, maybe three, times a year for a month at a time, and use AivlaSoft EFB as my charts viewer in a way.  It's just convenient.

 

9 minutes ago, Mr. ATC said:

May I ask why you would want different coloring of STAR and approaches? Would you then also mark transitions differently? Isn't this all together your approach?

It all comes down to being able to differentiate information at a glance.  I shouldn't be left wondering what's what during such an important/busy phase of flight.  In this case, transitions wouldn't need to be displayed any differently because I can see that the flight planned route is marked a different color.  Therefore the waypoint that acts as the transition is just that: the transition.

 

11 minutes ago, Mr. ATC said:

The idea is to have the close button everywhere at the same place. It might be worth a thought to introduce an option making them more touch-friendly (bigger).

My proposed solution, then, is to make the OK/Close/Whatever button be the right-most button.  

 

16 minutes ago, Mr. ATC said:

Unfortunately, the rules aren't the same all over the world. So it's not always west/east bound. To determine the correct FL according semi-circular rules (and FL changes when entering another area) is part of the flight planning, which is again not a task EFB is the tool for.

I actually didn't know this.  In that case, since EFB knows your flight plan at that point, maybe it can propose directional cruise altitudes based on the country of origin?

 

18 minutes ago, Mr. ATC said:

There is no reason to display an option that doesn't match with filterings already done. E.g. if you have selected a specific runway, why should procedures of any other runway be displayed? You can always reset the filter with the button "Clear".

That's why I'm asking for an option for that.  Of course it doesn't make sense to show procedures that don't apply to a specific runway for example.  My thought here is that it isn't user friendly to have to deselect an approach or transition just to be able to select another.  The green bar that appears already clearly marks which one is active.  Again, it comes down to having to make fewer clicks or touches when told by ATC to fly a different procedure than you had planned.

 

I am very much enjoying EFB v2, and I appreciate all the work that has gone into it!

[KiloJuliett]

7 minutes ago, Clorix said:

Therefore the waypoint that acts as the transition is just that: the transition.

I was more thinking about intermediate transitions which are used between STARs and the Instrument Approach and are not part of the planned route.

 

10 minutes ago, Clorix said:

My thought here is that it isn't user friendly to have to deselect an approach or transition just to be able to select another.

There are combinations possible that require either a transition (the list named "Via") or none. So it is necessary to give the option to only deselect a transition. You can always go back to a higher level and deselect for example the type of approach. This will clear all selections up to the type of approach and let you continue directly from there which one click.

[alpha117]

On 7/3/2018 at 3:32 AM, FwFreak said:

 

 

Another wish is that it would be possible to directly open pln flightplans created by other tools. Until now I have imported my routing into Pro-ATC/X and exported the route as a .pln file to open them with Active Sky and EFB 1.But now I have to open a windows explorer to copy the flightplan file manually into the EFB uplink folder to get them. Perhaps you can add a tab within the "create flightplan" window with a flightplan/file list from a preselected folder.

 

 

Why are you doing this when ProATC/X will automatically 'uplink' the clearance flight to EFB?  The same with Active sky, there is no manual intervention needed

[lonewulf47]

The reason for not closing the procedure window with "Set FPL" was dropped with the introduction of the RSB. Hit ARR and it closes the DEP window and v.v. Hit AUTO and it closes ALL windows. The way EFB v2 presents the procedures is just different to v1 but more straightforward when it comes to visualising each single procedure. It is comparable to  thumbing through a pile of charts. You might look around in different countries where selecting appropriate procedures is not necessarily leading to a continuous routing but possibly has gaps between segments. That's why we introduced this method of drawing each procedure in its real details to always provide the real depiction of the selected sements. Overall directions can still be derived from the procedure list. It's a different philosophy, but believe me, once you get the hang of it, you will find your way through. I fully understand your desire to keep the old beloved way of selecting procedures. Nobody is forcing you into something that you don't feel comfortable with.

 

As a general rule the devs do usually not participate in such discussions. I did this only because I was addressed by Jonas (Mr. ATC). Apart from this contribution I will stay out here and leave you to your proposals and ideas.

[Clorix]

Understood.  It just seems very counter-intuitive to have some other UI element, in this case the RSB, controlling the procedures window.

[benjoglove]

On 7/2/2018 at 10:56 AM, Clorix said:

 

1. More prominent display of information:  The way EFB v1 displayed chart information was very good.  Things like frequencies, restrictions, courses, etc. were MUCH more prominently displayed, using bold font and larger text size.  As it is now in v2, those same items are displayed in something like a 12pt, non-bolded style making it very difficult to find those items at a glance.

This I completely agree with. The frequency display was very announced in EFBV1. Showed what frequency was currently at all arrival and departure airfields and was there to see. Now you have to open up a window to see it. I'm staying with V1 for this very reason. Too many windows need opening and no were to drag and drop them into a place were it is prominent. Its gone backwards in this area in my opinion.

[kingm56]

I've reverted back to V1 because of key missing features; in short, V1 suits my needs better, for reasons Clorix articulated.  The developers are amazing though and I hope they'll listed to our critiques.  Good luck!  

[bobsk8]

I never tried V1, but I find everything in V2 very intuitive, and no problem to get where I want to go with at most one click 99% of the time. Couldn't ask for anything better. 

[bob34]

I have to agree with the others on the frequency ribbon along the top of the old client. This was absolutely the best feature in v1 for VATSIM flying - especially during busy events. The right click to tune was fantastic, the mouse hover to read the ATIS was used all the time, and the sequence of frequencies from left to right made me a champ on vatsim. 
I like the new pop-out window - but it's not as useful to me as the bar of frequencies integrated across the top of the map.

The preview of the SID/STAR selection was my 2nd favorite feature in the V1 client. I hope it's possible to bring that back.

[RayProudfoot]

12 hours ago, benjoglove said:

This I completely agree with. The frequency display was very announced in EFBV1. Showed what frequency was currently at all arrival and departure airfields and was there to see. Now you have to open up a window to see it. I'm staying with V1 for this very reason. Too many windows need opening and no were to drag and drop them into a place were it is prominent. Its gone backwards in this area in my opinion.

Ben, no, you don’t need to open a window to see the frequency and heading of your arrival runway. It occurs automatically when your aircraft enters the STAR.

 

As an example, yesterday I flew from EGKK to LFPG and had previously selected the arrival runway as 08R. As soon as I entered the STAR the Approach plate appeared automatically at the bottom of the display. It shows all the required info including G/A info.

 

Yes, it’s different to v1 but as good if not better. Certainly selecting the arrival runway is a LOT better than v1.

[FwFreak]

On 7/7/2018 at 10:42 PM, alpha117 said:

Why are you doing this when ProATC/X will automatically 'uplink' the clearance flight to EFB?  The same with Active sky, there is no manual intervention needed

Yes, you're right. I forgot this option and tried it. It is a little bit too late for me, because Pro-ATC/X seems to create the pln file only after the clearence. But that has nothing to do with EFB.

Finally to say, I have a big mySQL database with over 1000 flights and I have created a php script these days which exports all that flights into the efbr file format. So I can open all flights as Company Routes so this topic is finished for me  

 

On 7/7/2018 at 9:34 PM, Clorix said:

The same can be said for EFB v1, but the SID/STAR Overview feature was there, and those of us who used it found it tremendously useful in many cases.  It became part of our workflow.  For me, I don't keep a Navigraph subscription active all the time.  I subscribe twice, maybe three, times a year for a month at a time, and use AivlaSoft EFB as my charts viewer in a way.  It's just convenient.

 

At this point I agree with Clorix. Yes, the overview isn't a core funktion for an EFB (I think, haven't seen a real EFB yet). But I think some/many of us are doing their flight planning manually with tools like SkyVector and it is/was so helpfull to find possible entry and exit points for the route and I do not know any other software/tool with this great useful function. Additionally I (and I think many others) do not want to buy two or more products to cover all phases of a flight. I do not need a chart viewer (like from NavData Pro or Navigraph) because EFB has all necessary data from the AIRAC and my sim, puts them together and I can call them up whenever I need them in any flight phase including the flight planning.

 

At this time I consider to keep both EFB versions active. EFB 1 for the flight planning and EFB 2 for the flight itself. Not the best solution (especially to keep both program data up to date) but as Clorix said, the overview is just so helpfull.

 

 

Best regards

 

Karsten

 

[benjoglove]

21 hours ago, RayProudfoot said:

Ben, no, you don’t need to open a window to see the frequency and heading of your arrival runway. It occurs automatically when your aircraft enters the STAR.

 

As an example, yesterday I flew from EGKK to LFPG and had previously selected the arrival runway as 08R. As soon as I entered the STAR the Approach plate appeared automatically at the bottom of the display. It shows all the required info including G/A info.

 

Yes, it’s different to v1 but as good if not better. Certainly selecting the arrival runway is a LOT better than v1.

Might of missed my point. In v1 if you were at your departure airfield and there was active atc at your arrival it would show very prominently in the frequency table on top of the page. You dont get that now.  My suggestion to the developers would be to allow the frequency window to be dragged and dropped into a space you like so its visible and allow efb1 frequency choices back in. Im taliong frequencies only not runway or sid/star selection.

[RayProudfoot]

@benjoglove, understood. It’s a personal thing I suppose. I use Radar Contact so relied on that for the frequencies.

 

However, I’m not sure why you would need to know arrival frequencies even before you had taken off. Bit premature perhaps? Wouldn’t those become visible once you were airborne?

[benjoglove]

Efb v1 was my bees knees and got alot of mates onto it. To see this information was a huge game changer in having one program telling you all this info and having it  very prominent. To now have that missing and in pop up windows in my opinion is a step backwards. If efb can have it so the windows can be opened the dragged into a prominent area then you have me sold on v2. Too many wi ndows need popping open to view info. The more info you have for your flight the better it will be in my opinion. 

[RayProudfoot]

2 hours ago, benjoglove said:

Efb v1 was my bees knees and got alot of mates onto it. To see this information was a huge game changer in having one program telling you all this info and having it  very prominent. To now have that missing and in pop up windows in my opinion is a step backwards. If efb can have it so the windows can be opened the dragged into a prominent area then you have me sold on v2. Too many wi ndows need popping open to view info. The more info you have for your flight the better it will be in my opinion. 

 

Information is only useful when needed. I'll ask again. Why do you need to view arrival frequencies before you have departed?

[bob34]

12 hours ago, RayProudfoot said:

 

Information is only useful when needed. I'll ask again. Why do you need to view arrival frequencies before you have departed?

You are right Ray. Information is only useful when you need it.

 

I need it while I'm on the ground before departure. I like to see which ATC is online along my route. I like to hover my mouse over the ATIS and see which runway is active so I can plug it into my FMC and start planning ahead. I like to see ATC when they come online while I'm enroute.

Not sure "why do you need it" is such a good question.

"Why did you like it" is the better question because obviously people wouldn't ask for things they don't want or need.

 

I've sold a lot of friends on EFB (at least 5) and in our own circle we're all in agreement this version seems to have departed from a few of the concepts that made v1 great. It's different but not better if it can't deliver the few features that made v1 the must-have tool for flying online.

 

I'm very happy if Aivlasoft wants this kind of feedback and I'll be disappointed if it offends them.

 

[RayProudfoot]

@bob34, thanks for explaining why you need arrival info. I'm guessing many of your flights are only an hour or two since any longer ones could definitely have different arrival weather (and therefore different arrival runways) by the time you get there.

 

I don't fly on-line but can understand the desire to see which ATC are on-line. I'm sure Urs will take this on board and consider if changes are needed. It certainly won't offend him. ?

[bobsk8]

4 hours ago, RayProudfoot said:

@bob34, thanks for explaining why you need arrival info. I'm guessing many of your flights are only an hour or two since any longer ones could definitely have different arrival weather (and therefore different arrival runways) by the time you get there.

 

I don't fly on-line but can understand the desire to see which ATC are on-line. I'm sure Urs will take this on board and consider if changes are needed. It certainly won't offend him. ?

 

Why not just use Vatastic. http://www.vattastic.com/    Takes one click of the mouse. I stopped using vatsim, because I got tired of seeing no controllers at all, where and when I wanted to fly. 

[KiloJuliett]

Or use vroute. It has even a prediction of service along your route based on statistics. And of course, it shows currently active controllers and planned sessions (ATC bookings).

 

[bob34]

7 hours ago, Mr. ATC said:

Or use vroute. It has even a prediction of service along your route based on statistics. And of course, it shows currently active controllers and planned sessions (ATC bookings).

 

 

 

Using an additional program to accomplish what V1 used to accomplish isn't a good answer if v2 is considered an upgrade.

Looking at them side by side, I find V1 far more useful. The fonts are cleaner, the aircraft symbol is cleaner AND I have my beloved frequency bar across the top which - again - was a key feature of Aivlasoft's EFB.

This isn't my reluctance to adapt to new software. Not to disrespect the hard work that went into v2, but this is either a miscalculation by the developers on how this tool is used or perceived by the end user .... or (hopefully) a work in progress that will be shaped and formed by the wants/needs of their faithful community.

I'm not stomping my feet and saying I'm going back to V1, but I'm anxious to know if I can count on some of the conveniences of the V1 interface to be put back into V2 or I need to ride V1 until it can't read P3D's data anymore and then consider what's next.

[KiloJuliett]

I think you got my statement wrong.

 

9 hours ago, bobsk8 said:

I stopped using vatsim, because I got tired of seeing no controllers at all, where and when I wanted to fly.

I was responding to the post just before where to issue to find routings with ATC coverage was addressed. I offered an alternativ solution for this, which is clearly a planning step and therefore not something EFB claims to cover.

 

On one hand I can understand that you are missing something while in-flight. I guess we are talking here about a situation exclusive to online pilots. They might have indeed special or different needs and probably there is a solution to satisfy all users, we just haven't found it yet. On the other hand, you will have to listen anyway to the controllers what is the next frequency to go. If it comes to that frequency change, v2 offers better option in setting and switching the frequency directly. Also to read the ATIS, I prefer the version where I can select the station and the text stays then until I change my selection. Especially for touch devices, this is more convenient than the hover-approach in v1.

 

I'm trying now to find out what information from the list in v1 is needed, and where/when exactly to find ideas how it could be implemented in v2.

One question is: Do you really no the next station(s) in your area in order to pre-select the frequency. Can't you do this also with listening to the frequency?

From the ATIS, you mainly want to have the text, right? Perhaps this can be integrated into the airport sidebar? Like a switch between the METAR information where and the text from the ATIS station. Or an option somewhere to display this text on top (at the bottom) of the map window just in plan text (similar to what the sim can do).

For the controller info, maybe this kind of display could also be introduced? Showing up when tuning in the new frequency and stay for x seconds. And maybe could called again to be displayed with a click somewhere or a shortcut.

 

Just a few ideas. Let's talk about. I think design-wise, there are better options than in v1 because the bar takes unnecessarily much space from the map which can be used better. So let's find a way to do it.

[bob34]

Jonas - I appreciate you trying to understand, but if you don't fly online you probably don't know what it's like during a busy vatsim event when the controller is handing you off from center to approach to tower and you can get a visual on the frequency he wants. With V1 - that bar right is front of my eyes - in the proper sequence - and right-click/left click to tune. It's fast, accurate, and the difference because when the controller mumbles the frequency or doesn't give it to you, or gives you something like:
AAL1234 cleared direct LUNDY cross LUNDY at or maintain 12000, speed 250, contact approach on 125.72 with restriction ...    having 125.72 right in front off me, along with the STAR and restrictions on the MAP makes EFB the best tool an online pilot could ever want. It's not a waste of space - it's one of the best uses of space in the app. And one can hide it if they want.

 "therefore not something EFB claims to cover"
"I'm trying now to find out what information from the list in v1 is needed, and where/when exactly to find ideas how it could be implemented in v2."
 

Based on your comments, I'm really concerned now that the development team doesn't realize the incredible value of the features of V1 for online pilots. Thanks for trying to understand, but if the Q&A is going "why do you need this" then I'm losing confidence. Sorry to be so dramatic, but EFB v1 actually makes flying MUCH more enjoyable and it's one of those few apps I can't imagine not having. I actually fly X-Plane much less because your app is not available (yet). 

Feel free to e-mail, PM me, skype me, anything you want and I'll be glad to drill into detail..   Thanks!!

 

Bob